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Last musings about this....

Posted By: Marcelline (152.163.197.47)
Date: Tuesday, 23 July 2002, at 2:26 a.m.

In Response To: Re: For the record... (Vickie)

Sorry for not answering your post sooner, Vickie. I had one of those weekends where the wave of weakness and shakiness just sweeps over me. When that takes place, good luck if I actually try to type. I should have seen what was coming Friday night, when after posting my "disenfranchised" post to Mindy, in rereading it I saw many and ridiculous flare-ups of my dyslexia. (ouch) Anyway, here are those (not necessarily brief though not excessively long) last thoughts of mine - at least for now - about our feederism/NAAFA dialogue.

To begin with, you’re right, this is going to have to be an agree to disagree thing.

I need to acknowledge Pete’s insight on this, and I wholeheartedly agree with him that many choices come down to problems with dependency, so nowhere near this thing we try to define as being love. But we know that love is the most basic psychological human need - despite people participating in its distorted versions. However, that genuine love of the self is missing, in dependent personalities, is exactly what leads people like that into all kinds of unhealthy relationships, not to mention into general situations also unhealthy.

I wouldn’t dream of playing psychologist, here, but from my own experience with clients and others, there seems to be at least one hallmark of such personalities. They no little to nothing about the concept of setting and/or honoring personal boundaries - theirs or those of others. Because nobody taught them about that at critical stages of their lives. I do believe there are marker points at which behavior becomes rote, tapes play endlessly in the head. And the feeder/feedee relationship is just one such reflection of that issue.

>>I guess this is what I wonder. How can anyone living anywhere near a TV, radio, internet -- in short, anywhere but a cave -- NOT know the dangers of feederism. I mean we're bombarded with it (whether or not we choose to believe all of the hysteria over being fat)<<

I think, when we all talk about this subject, we should strive to be factual, and realistic about its spread, therefore consider the real availability of general and important info regarding it. Radio? TV? If that was for effect - as antithesis to life in a cave - okay. But why use it? I sure hope we all do realize society as a whole is hardly aware of this issue. And *even* with the Internet, what we know more of feederism is who’s supportive of it, and why.

One has to start to do some digging, on the net, to really "get" far ranging consequences, which can ONLY be given by people who’ve literally experienced those consequences. And few of them who’ve been there are happy to tell their real stories, because of shame.

I’m not talking about the willing and experienced/"knowledgeable" superstars of feederism. Forget the fact that I gag (yes) whenever I think of their bodies and lives and where those two are most definitely headed. And I’m not talking about women "fat enough" who have zero interest in feederism, but manage - whether or not I see that as healthy, either - to turn the tables on men who think rights to viewing their bodies and related activities should be free. That they do so by setting up pay websites, I do find at least a little amusing. Anyway, I’m talking about the average Jane to whom the very concept of size acceptance, complete w/male admirers who supposedly adore her body (as is), is literally new. I think it's important to acknowledge, here, that *she* is the prime target in feederism. Along with all the other women totally new to *any* so called size acceptance environment.

If feeder sites/clubs masking as size acceptance are her fist discoveries, no kidding, may the goddess be with her.

The example I gave you, then, is why I really *can* imagine someone not knowing just what she’s getting into.

Yes, I too have often known and dealt with people, who, repeating self abusive mistakes in their relationships or other kinds of negative behavior, dance a pattern that to them seems like it can’t be broken. Yet when they have, first, sufficient information, and second, the determination to try to break it, the pattern can change. And yes, they many times do stay in relationships, and/or continue certain behaviors (which come from their beliefs which come from their knowledge or the lack of it), far too long to have even relatively "healthy" lives, nevertheless *always* getting some payoff for doing so. The main one being that they allow themselves to maintain their own status of victim.

But in my mind, there’s a radical difference between the victim who becomes such either due to sudden circumstance or initial lack of thorough information, and the one who, informed, repeats negative patterns, anyway.

Which is why I will always disagree that a fat woman devoid of self love - and completely new to any size acceptance - makes a mutual choice in even thinking she’s going to at least "play with" the feederism lifestyle, for a little while. Because - and I said this in my post to Conrad - she does not know. Not then, anyway, Vickie. Not then. By that I mean the long term and likely consequences of feederism. I just don’t think other women who’ve come to size acceptance, equipped with a lot or at least a sense of self love, really understand how "bewitched, bothered, and bewildered" these potential feedees are really feeling. I don’t. Anyway, in my opinion, the only feedee who makes a mutual choice is the one who does gather important information, reasons not to do so, and goes ahead and gets into it in spite of this.

But see, most "feedees" begin to be such *early* in their participation of this brand of size acceptance Because they are single and inexperienced, have been beat up by society, already, and for them, the utter appeal of men actually liking their bodies fat - and "maybe" fatter - is so strong, it really is like their own individual siren call. (No pun intended on the "siren" part.) At that point on each of their own "hero’s journey" (all the "detours" in our lives being individual hero’s journeys, to find out who we really are), like Odysseus almost becoming seduced by The Sirens, by Calypso, the lure of feederism must seem so freeing, so idyllic.

You just have no idea, Vickie, how many times I have privately heard that women like the ones I’ve described above, including many - not just a few - who attend NAAFA conventions, truthfully have almost zero real social experience. NAAFA conventions being their only social outlets. They literally live year-to-year for the experience, there. And we’re not talking the convention’s seminars.

So, if you fear, as you say, what women don’t have control over, then as it applies to this subject of discussion, you and all of us should fear the lack of information available just on these matters. What kind of heroes are we, that we’d rather wait to help a woman out of a negative situation "if she’s ready," when we darn well know our first obligation is to inform women *before* they get into such circumstances? Of course this covers many subjects relating to women, but again, I’m applying that to just this discussion. Because education of any kind is most definitely connected to self love (which takes a while to learn), which by extension is connected to our abilities at social interaction of all kinds on all levels.

I’ll tell you what my gut feeling is about the avoidance by certain women - so, not just by the female powers that be in NAAFA - of the feederism discussion. To begin with, enough of them in these SA communities, including long term regulars, have *not* made peace with, come to accept their bodies, much less love them. And they still don’t understand the importance of seeing and working with themselves as whole people, because focusing on their fatness, and how the world treats them as fat women, is easier than doing "soul" growth. While you might doubt this, think about how both sets of thought manifest as angry, sarcastic and snippy responses that still number way too many.

Now, I wouldn’t wish the way I lost weight, due to my hyperthyroidism, on my so called worst enemy. Because the amount of it and the speed at which it happened was downright scary. And really atrophied some muscles, which I’m having to work with to try and get back. But coming to peace with, accepting your body does not mean you can’t or shouldn’t change it, even if only a little to your betterment, as long as that’s done in healthful ways. Yet here in these communities sit many women who say they’re "done with that game" - *because* they love themselves. Still, the first challenge to their thoughts sets enough of them ablaze. With anger.

Why is that? Well, here’s the real reason. They are reacting on some totally other level. Their "being-ness" feels threatened. And because that "being-ness" is not yet intact, even after all this time, any attachment to feederism - even via intelligent discussion - is one big threat. For all their "rah-rah-rah" of size acceptance, the last thing they resemble are people who really believe it. Other than being in fear when bullies try to intimidate them into not discussing feederism, these certain women don’t want to talk about it for an entirely different reason. It’s a subject that sits "too close to home." I absolutely "feel" they are terrified *they* may be seen as some kind of feedees; and we do know there are self-medicating feedees. Therefore I feel, in truth, they are not about to help other women manage to avoid what in one way or other they’ve gone or go through.

So, yes hon’, this really will have to be an agree to disagree thing. However true it is that women do have so many more choices, today, I see those and their number as completely dependent upon circumstances, which can get very complicated in a great many lives. And I do feel, women become *each other’s* enemies beyond becoming their own, whenever they make assumptions that, at heart, all women "are capable of, have the ability" to, and so will make the "right" choices in the things that count. According to their particular beliefs about what make choices right. Including behavior toward each other. As Western women, we deal with the same character flaw that men do. And I’m speaking as a rule. We have this tendency to think, for the world over, our way - individually, as well as collectively - *is* the right way even as we continue to discover parts of all that it means to be a woman, anywhere, at any age, and in any age. Whereas in so many other cultures intermingling groups of women consider what’s best for everybody.

You have found something you can support in NAAFA. I actually joined NAAFA ‘round about 1993, and so, long before the web and websites came into existence. And not for reasons of loneliness or a sense of belonging. I was forty five, with life under my belt. But I saw an ad in the then differently owned BBW magazine, and I thought it might be nice to support what "sounded" like a caring organization. Beyond initially receiving some kind of ID card and a poorly done and minimal info packet, in one year of membership I never heard from NAAFA again. Not one newsletter, not one bit of information about even so much as its yearly convention. So, it was poorly run even then, nine years ago. Because I later learned that was the story for more than just me. When I came online in ’97, I got a full dose of what NAAFA really stood for. And I made up my mind, then, that I would never join any organization simply because it was the only game in town, therefore supposedly the best people apparently have available.

Here is something that works well for me as I keep trying to conduct a hopefully meaningful life. To me, just as matters of faith provide many different paths to spiritual learning, the same holds true in mundane life. (Although I choose to see everything connected.) Yet for me, any path worth embracing embraces all (people) who might be affected - right from the start - in practice as well as outcome (even if seemingly no major "battles" are ever won). Likewise a path not worth my embracing *professes* to embrace all possibly being affected while it does not - in practice as well as outcome. And its victories always ring hollow.

That thinking doesn’t mean I’m "right." It simply supports the life I try to live. Sooner or later it should be apparent what supports someone’s life or not. And I feel, that’s the key in all decision making.

During my experience with much New Age thought, I met many people who came to it because they began rejecting mostly the religion of their birth and the way the world "was." I saw many of them "float" through many different ideas, taking them sometimes as their own - for awhile. Many in that movement, and who also come from certain other spiritual practice, believe there really is no right or wrong. I believe there are truths that reveal most definite rights and wrongs - but in the sense of balance and reciprocation. Which is why

I think all paths, in one sense, are good. The whole purpose of choosing any path - even if it is one formed from other major paths, and even in mundane things - is to learn. Just learn. And while learning is more often done over time, sometimes it’s immediate. One can make a leap into another something that s/he can support or away from one s/he cannot. Knowing by "sense" by intuitive feeling.

WLS was one such example for me, but that’s another post, another time - farrrrrrrrrrr into the future. I only went to NAAFA’s board to post again, Vickie, so I could address what I truly, TRULY saw as bully tactics used in an attempt to quiet any discussion of feederism. As I saw kind of follow-up posts here addressing NAAFA and feederism, I wanted to be present for a little while here, too. I have no illusions about being able to contribute well to NAAFA’s form of size acceptance and its connections. No illusions that I could actually help it, do any lasting good.. And my sudden and extreme turn in health, brought about by my hyperthyroidism and hypercalcemia, reminded me in no uncertain terms of many important things. How precious are the minutes of my own life, and especially in health, for one thing. How precious, then, is my ability to put words in a way that will touch people, will affect them, despite my dyslexia, not being a grammarian by a long shot, and no matter how the words are received. How precious, in general, it is to be able to be in the world, even as I’m generally "not of it." The most precious thing being the self informed choice I can make about where to put those and other energies, and - to a point - when.

So for you NAAFA supports part of your life, for me it supports no part of my life. To you feederism is mutual choice right from the get-go, to me it isn’t. It should be okay for all of us to agree to disagree, wherever and whenever we’ll likely disagree, anyway. As time goes by, our choices really will support the lives not so much we say we want, but the ones we’re willing to live.

And if you, too, would like to post last thoughts on our discussion, Vickie, then please do. I enjoy reading your posts, also. Many thanks for your concern about my health. I’m just purposely not "dancing as fast as I can," anymore. And that’s just fine with me.

Marcelline

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